And what I see:
Her: White, able bodied, slim transmen (no gap, because they are a different species to MEN, as we shall see) in shirts and ties are ridiculously hot.
Her: They’re might look like men, but really they’re just tricking everyone! See! Let’s have a look at how they do that by using unhealthily dangerous Ace bandage binding techniques, and wearing packers to pretend they have penises!
Her: REAL white, slim, able-bodied men in shirts and ties (borrring) have proper facial hair (or at least beards with no moustaches, which is kind of yuck). None of this five-o’clock-possibly-drawn-on-shadow for REAL, BIOLOGICAL men! They also have flesh penises that they’ve had since they were babies. I think that they are icky and boring. I’m pretty much a lesbian.
Her: BUT THIN, WHITE, ALL-LIMBS-ATTACHED TRANSMEN ARE REALLY SEXY! LOOK AT THEIR BOOBIES!!! LOOK HOW THEY MAKE EVERYONE THINK THAT THEY’RE REALLY GUYS! IT’S SO CLEVER! AND SEXY! I THINK I AM GOING TO GO INTO A RELIGIOUS RAPTURE!
Him: Uh, stop objectifying me. We're men, not some inbetween for you to fetishise.
Her: HAHAHA OH, YOU! YOU’RE SO CUTE WHEN YOU’RE ANGRY! STOP WORRYING YOUR PRETTY LITTLE HEAD ABOUT IT! I’M GOING TO HUMP YOUR FEMALE LEG! I KNOW IT’S FEMALE UNDERNEATH ALL THAT TRICKERY! IT’S SO SEEEEXXXXXXXXXXXXY! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE OBJECTIFIED MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T GO OUT IN THAT GET-UP! REALLY, YOU'RE JUST ASKING FOR IT!!! LOL!
As I've said in conversations with other people, maybe if I had been following these comics for ages I would be less offended by this one (in fact, there are a number of others that I think are adorable). Maybe I would feel like I had some kind of connection with the artist, and maybe I would trust that the last two panels are meant to be critical of the protagonist's attitude. Instead, the last two panels actually read as flippant and dismissive (to lift a phrase that Grace used in a locked LJ post).
Probably even more headdesky, though, are some of the comments/responses here. A bunch of trans guys say that they like the panel, assuring Erika that it's either not offensive, or it's better than nothing/better than depictions of trans folk getting bashed up (which, yeah, I agree, but that's a really low bar to set, isn't it!?) . . . but when criticised or questioned, the good old arguments come out: "stop using that tone/you're so mean" and "blah blah so-called 'issues' blah blah" and "that's not what I intended/you're reading it wrong" and "i'm offended that you're offended/how dare you say i'm privileged?" *Sigh* It makes me sad.
And then part of me thinks that maybe, just maybe, my issue is that I am not primarily attracted to women, so I am having an "EW, HET!" moment, and I should just suck it up! But I'm pretty sure it's more than that.
ETA: Sarah made this pisstake image. Ha! Seriously.
54 comments:
Well, you know my feelings, and I think your analysis is spot on, so I vote for more than "ew, het". :p
Maybe it's the air of "you are all the same" that is icky about this particular comment? You've already made her category of "transman" far more specific in your post...
@grace: yes i do! :D
@lilacsigil: i think that's also a factor - i probably could have written "White, able bodied, slim transmen (WHICH ARE THE ONLY KIND, YOU KNOW) are ridiculously hot."
I'm attracted to women and I think it's all kinds of gross. Ugh.
@halfpintjack: thanks. i am aware that i sometimes have a bit of an anti-het bias (which is ridiculous as someone who is/has been attracted to all kinds of sexes and genders), and so i find myself second-guessing myself on that count sometimes.
privilege.recognition.fail!
Pff, somewhere in all that justification on her livejournal came the revelation that these were people on the street her super-effective tranny-dar picks out as transmen based on certain "cues".
So they're not even people she knows who happen to be trans, but people she's just decided are those hip gender-bending types. Half of them probably *are* cismen.
This is why I couldn't stand to remain female while desiring Teh Gay - it's so rude to be some speshul hetero female drinking in the eye candy while sitting happily in Straight Land.
That comic sucked and yes, your analysis is spot on. Also, I LOVE THAT COSMO COVER.
@shehasathree: pretty much, yes. how not to do it: (1) say that you're worried this might come across as objectifying (2) when someone tells you that yes, it is objectifying, tell them they're wrong.
@rahball: yes! omg, "i like men who look like they're trans!" wtf?
@aren: BUCK ANGEL - HOT GIRLY MAN! i loled and loled.
Yeah. The comic was pretty gross.
And you can't tell just by looking at someone if they are awesome or not!
FOR EXAMPLE: The other day in the supermarket a Straight Boy mistook me for a Straight Man and asked me questions about RUGBY LEAGUE.
You heard right. RUGBY LEAGUE.
So you know, this chick would probably see me in the street and go "Ewww... peen!" even though you and I both know, that I am a sexy TRANSFAGGOT!
I'm m33n; I left a comment telling her how disgusting her comic was and how I loathe chasers.
And NIx, I sometimes worry about the same stuff ("eww, girls have cooties!"--my inner 5 year old), but I'm 99.999% certain I'd feel the same if she was a straight guy.
@radicalyffe: OMG WHUT? RUGBY?!?!?!? D: D: D: DO NOT WANT
@drakyn: good for you! and YES re: [there is a space here]! i'm glad i'm not the only one who does this . . . unlike some people, i realise that it's problematic, and then i try to combat it in myself, rather than telling everyone else to stfu.
Wait, why is her liking girls dressed like boys bad?
hi, anonymous. would you like a serious answer to that, or are you just trolling?
Serious answer, please.
there's nothing wrong with her liking girls who dress as boys, but trans men are not girls dressing as boys, and it's offensive to imply that they are.
So its bad to point out that trans men were once girls? Im serious about this, I may sound stupid, but I know some trans people who are okay telling people that they were once something else. At what point does a woman "become" a man?
a person is the gender they say they are.
you asked what is wrong with the comic, and i clarified. if you still don't get it, perhaps you could re-read my post, and/or read sarah's post and the comments. and if you still don't get it, read the blog questioning transphobia in full. basically, educate yourself.
I read both your blog and Sarah's and they were very informative.
Im going to put on a potato sack and tell people that I'm a potato. If anyone is turned on by this I will make sure to yell at them too.
good luck with that, i hope it's an improvement.
Ew, I don't want troll potatoes. I like potatoes!
i like this potato!
The longer this comic sat with me, the more uneasy I felt about it. Was it her depiction/"explanation"/reduction of trans men? Was it her equation of transness as something like drag? Was it that she finds the "transformation" sexy, while implying that transformation is also a deception? Was it her biphobia (not normally attracted to men, though is married to a man, but trans men are not "real men" so they don't count?) or just plain bi invisibility? Perhaps all these things. Which you, of course, express far better in your post than me in this here comment.
So then I went and read the comments in that webcomic's lj post. The comments are now "temporarily disabled" interestingly enough. It was very strange, the way she reacted to being called up on her privilege. Perhaps I have been reading/have read more posts/articles about privilege than she has, but she was so dismissive of the idea that, despite her good intentions, she might have got it wrong. Admittedly some of the comments were anonymous which does nothing for their credibility in internet debates.
I think the artist intends the final panel to be mocking of herself, of the way she objectifies trans men. That is to say nothing of the way it comes across. It's like depicting any minority: it's not enough just to do it and think that's good enough (or worse still, to pat yourself on the back for doing it when it hasn't been done before). You have to think about how you do it and make sure you do it right. And it's so much more important that you do it right.
Which makes me think perhaps there's a gap in the market for a webcomic about transness...?!
Oh eww ewww eww I hate this comic so much. But I have to admit that the moment I read it I thought "well I'm glad I don't really ever date cis women" because I am very dubious even in SF of that particular demographic group to not see me as some kind of lesbian hybrid 2.0. So...yes, I have to question my reactivity as well.
But your analysis really revealed how...gross it was really. Especially the 'transforming' panel
esthervonjohnson: There are actually quite a few webcomics by and about trans people. Personally I really like Venus Envy. There's some more at the transgender day of remembrance webcomics project but I make no guarantee of their quality :)
I was bugged by the DAR comic when I saw it but not quite sure what to make of it. I'm sad to hear she was worse in the comments, and that she then disabled them entirely.
I must admit I've said some creepy objectifying things about ethnicities I tend to find attractive which in retrospect I feel really uncomfortable with. It's too easy to go "But I'm giving a COMPLIMENT how can anyone object to THAT??"
*is paranoid due to lack of "preview comment" feature, apologises for inevitable errors*
@johnnypurple: Admittedly some of the comments were anonymous which does nothing for their credibility in internet debates. LOL! . . . that *was* racefail09 snark, wasn't it? or were you just having a dig at our own pet mouse in these comments? anyway, the bi stuff really puzzles me. actually, i've seen a number of people (americans?) in the last couple of weeks say that they don't describe themselves as bisexual because that means being equally attracted to men and women. bizarre! i'd never come across that idea before!
@cyd: "lesbian hybrid 2.0" is pretty much the exact feeling i get from this kind of thing. gross out!
@sophie: thanks for the links! i also recently read tom's story at khaos komix, which talks about a trans guy and a trans girl.
yeah, the comments were pretty much a textbook case of how not to respond when called on your privilege/fuck-up. when someone explained what privilege was and that, yes, she does have some forms of privilege, she responded by getting angry and telling them she was living on the poverty line. i think the phrase she used was "i'm just going to go and roll around in all my PRIVILEGE", or similar.
She didn't disable comments because she couldn't be bothered to be involved in the conversation or because she was trying to disrespect anyone, she shut down the comments because the comments were getting way out of hand, i.e, death-threat-style comments and the like, which scared her into shutting things down until things cooled over a bit.
Try and give her a break here, folks. Until the responses to the comic came flooding in she'd never even *heard* of privilege being used as descriptive for transphobic behaviour (neither had I, or half the other non-trans people commenting, it seemed), which goes a way to explaining her her own comments in that thread.
Anyway, she's a sweet person who really meant absolutely no harm with the comic, and is feeling the sting from the trans-community about it right now, believe me. Just give her some time to sort out just what in the hell happened there (like I said, a lot of us are just learning about privilege for the first time as a result of the uproar stemming from this comic - myself included) and I'm pretty sure she'll be happy to open up a constructive dialogue with everyone she may've accidentally hurt. She's only human, guys.
hi bill, i'm really not sure what your relationship is with erika, and i would appreciate it if you clarified how you know this information?
i don't really have time to write a well-integrated essay in response to your comment here, so i'll go for dot points.
* i hope the "death-threat-style comments and the like" weren't actually death threats.
* i hope that you and erika and all the other people who didn't understand about cis privilege (and the other privileges visible in the comic - white, able-bodied, not-fat) take this as an opportunity to learn more.
* i hope you also realise that trans people's anger about this comic and erika's responses is justified, and that you cease telling us to calm down and think of the poor cis woman's feelings.
* there are ways on LJ to freeze comment threads without deleting or hiding the comments that are already there, and of deleting "death-threat-style comments and the like". hiding/deleting all the comments (and replacing them with an advertisement for her book) means that erika appears to not want to learn, does not appear to want to engage in a dialogue with trans people, and doesn't seem to give a shit what people think so long as they give her money. (note i've said 'appears', 'appear' and 'seem' - this is how it comes across to us, no matter what her intentions.)
* by making it impossible to comment directly to her post/comic, erika has chosen to aide the shift into the trans blogosphere (for want of a better phrase), where the majority of us find her comic offensive, and are not going to curb our language out of respect for her feelings - after all, she seemed to have little respect for ours when she (a) penned the comic, (b) responded to our discomfort and privilege calling in the way she did and (c) deleted our comments and did not provide any other avenue for us to talk to her.
* i am glad that she is "a sweet person who really meant absolutely no harm". but there are plenty of sweet people who have unexamined privilege and who hurt others (out of wilful ignorance or ignorance).
* "I'm pretty sure she'll be happy to open up a constructive dialogue with everyone she may've accidentally hurt." i genuinely do hope that you and erika and others who have only just now encountered the notion of privilege (or cis privilege, or intersectionality, etc) actively go out and figure out what they're doing wrong. by the way, a constructive conversation is already happening - on this blog, at sarah's LJ, in other public (as well as private) spaces. part of constructive dialogue is allowing the people who have been hurt to express their anger without trying to silence them. another part of a constructive dialogue is the person with privilege actively trying to find out more and educating themselves, rather than expecting those without that privilege to hand them a 101 on a silver platter. on that note, questioning transphobia is one blog where cis privilege is discussed frequently, so maybe you could start your own education there.
in this reply to you, i have attempted to be very civil, and not let my 'tone' get out of hand. this is playing by your rules on my blog, and you need to realise that. if you're not sure what 'tone' has to do with it, try googling white privilege and tone, or cis privilege and tone, or feminism and anger and tone.
I'm just friends with Erika is all (both online and off), and believe me, this has been a crash-course on privilege for more people than you might realize - myself included.
Anyway, I don't wanna speak for Erika more than I already have, but yeah, she's aware that she's stepped on a *lot* of toes here, and I doubt that the original comic she posted will be the last you hear from her about the situation.
hi bill, thanks for the clarification, and i agree you shouldn't try to speak for erika. i hope if we do hear more from her, it's an apology rather than an attempt at justifying herself or telling us that we're misreading the comic (which is what often happens in these circumstances).
i'm interested to hear about what you've learnt about your own privileges, and how it's changed what you think or how you might behave in the future - if you are willing to share, of course!
I should clarify that I didn't know much about this particular use of the word 'privilege' in regards to gender dynamics. I had a basic knowledge of what privileges are, but I'd never seen it used in such a practiced, off-hand way ("Excuse me, your privilege is showing", etc.) as if we were all a bunch of freshman hanging out in our dorm after poly-sci class.
This whole experience with the trans community hasn't really taught me anything about my 'own privileges', though, mostly because I've always understood that no matter who and what you are, you're always gonna have a leg up on *someone* else in society - everyone enjoys some kind of privilege in their lives, it's how you wield your privileges that show what kind of person you are.
What I've learned here is that some people will wield their own perceived lack of privilege as a golden shield when attacking someone else for showing privilege. I've also learned that people who've been bullied their whole lives have no problem turning into a hysterical lynch mob who will stalk and threaten - rather than talk to and educate - anyone who might accidentally offend them.
It's unfortunate because this whole mess *has* changed how I'll likely think and behave regrading transfolk in the future, but not in a good way. Until this fight erupted, I really never gave transfolk a second thought one way or the other, but now when I bump into one on the street a tiny part of me is gonna wonder if they're one of the crazy people who weren't content to just voice their justified frustration/dissapointment with a friend's comic, but who then barraged said friend with enough threatening messages and emails to leave her dry-heaving from a week-long panic attack.
I hope to get over that eventually, but, damn.
I saw the comment thread before it was locked down - I don't remember seeing any "death threat-style" comments, but they could've happened in the 3-4 hours between the time I last checked and the time it was locked down.
I did see someone comment to say that he was bothered by the comic, and explained why he was bothered by the comic. And I saw Erika get defensive, blame him for being offended, insisted that he was interrogating the text (and pictures) from the wrong perspective, and tell him to stop being so mean to her. I saw a woman step in and calmly explain why the comic was offensive, and again get a defensive reaction.
What I didn't see (and don't see) are people using oppression as a "golden shield" to get away with all kinds of horrible actions, but I did see a cis woman using her own cis privilege to denounce everyone who found her comic problematic.
And this:
I've also learned that people who've been bullied their whole lives have no problem turning into a hysterical lynch mob who will stalk and threaten - rather than talk to and educate - anyone who might accidentally offend them.
is bullshit.
People were trying to talk and educate, and Erika was having none of it, and accusing them of bullying her.
You're also applying a double-standard - trans people have to be calm and cool at all times, especially when offended or attacked (because it might not be intentional) while Erika gets a free pass to be as offensive as she likes, and as aggressively defensive as possible to deny that she was being offensive in the first place.
And this:
It's unfortunate because this whole mess *has* changed how I'll likely think and behave regrading transfolk in the future, but not in a good way. Until this fight erupted, I really never gave transfolk a second thought one way or the other, but now when I bump into one on the street a tiny part of me is gonna wonder if they're one of the crazy people who weren't content to just voice their justified frustration/dissapointment with a friend's comic, but who then barraged said friend with enough threatening messages and emails to leave her dry-heaving from a week-long panic attack.
Is some some seriously prejudiced bullshit.
bill, your response makes me feel as though you are throwing the time and energy i've spent trying to be reasonable with you back in my face.
it seems that you're not actually willing to take a good hard look at your own privilege in this matter . . . and, well, it's a painful thing to do sometimes, so in some ways i understand. you don't have to "give transfolk a second thought", whereas we have to confront being trans in a transphobic/cissexist society every day. that's one aspect of your privilege.
it can be fucking hard to see the same transphobic and cissexist attitudes repeated over and over again, and if you stop for a moment to think about it, you might understand why people get so angry when we see the same shit doled out yet again (in newspapers, by visual artists, in films, by writers, on our blogs, by cis people, etc).
i'm sorry that erika is upset, and has had a panic attack. but you know what? SHE FUCKED UP. don't come onto my blog without even acknowledging that she fucked up and proceed to tell me how upset she is. you seem to have no idea how painful the comic was for a lot of trans people (i was angry and thought it was objectifying, but other people were hurt/triggered because it contains the same attitudes of ex-partners who used them).
i am feeling incredibly frustrated at being repeatedly asked/told to justify my responses (and other trans peoples responses) on this blog and elsewhere. i'm angry when you and others try to make out that trans people are so mean for pointing out that erika's comic was offensive.
i've tried to have a reasonable discussion with you, but you have not taken up or responded to any of my points. if you comment again, i'd appreciate if if you could talk to some of the points i made in my first reply to you.
Oh, yes.
So many trans people I consider friends have said in various online spaces and communities I frequent that they found this comic traumatic and triggering, and we're supposed to place more emphasis on the tears of a cis woman?
It sucks that she had a panic attack. It sucks that so many people I love and respect have said that her comic makes them feel disgusting. Why are her feelings supposed to be more important than theirs?
Ugg Bill.
Because soooooo many poor innocent cis people have been cruelly attacked and murdered by trans* people. O wait, isn't it the other way around?
Maybe if your friend hadn't written such a horribly offensive and disgusting comic we wouldn't have gotten angry?
And fyi, (non consensually) objectifying and fetishizing someone is wrong; when I read her comic I felt gross/tainted because I do not care for being thirdgendered and seen as nothing but a sex-toy.
"Until this fight erupted, I really never gave transfolk a second thought one way or the other, but now when I bump into one on the street a tiny part of me is gonna wonder if they're one of the crazy people"
And every time I run into some cis-gendered dude I'll wonder if he's the douchebag who saw fit to write this dumbass sentence in the first place. Thanks for not giving us a second thought there Bill, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE A FANTASTIC GRASP ON EXAMINING YOUR OWN PRIVILEGE.
Sorry for disturbing you and your friend with our discomfort at being portrayed as laughable (secret women) sex objects. Maybe we should feel thankful that she didn't depict any transfolk dying in the last panel, thx for the step up in media representation!
I like how everyone assumes that just because I'm a dumbass, that I MUST be cis. Excuse me, but I think YOUR priveileges must be showing. ;)
Anyway, I might reply to Nix sometime via email or something, as anything I write here is undoubtedly gonna end with a "OMG MY PAIN IS SO MORE VALID THAN ANYONE ELSE'S PAIN"-fueled slapfight.
Peace out, folks.
I like how everyone assumes that just because I'm a dumbass, that I MUST be cis.
This gave a bit of a clue: "Until this fight erupted, I really never gave transfolk a second thought one way or the other"
I've seen white people throw "You don't know for sure that I'm white" in discussions about racism. And I've seen cis people say "You don't know for sure that I'm cis." In general, I've seen more than my fair share of privileged people who refuse to own their privilege when called on abusing it.
Anyway, Bill, whether you're cis or trans, the points raised in response to you are valid. They're not "my pain is more valid than yours," and it is a bullshit argument to say they are.
Also, it's pretty dishonest to invoke the idea that you're trans to dodge the fact that you said some transphobic things. It's doubly so when you're not actually trans.
bill, i'm not really interested in hearing from you privately. and i'm only interested in hearing from you again in this public space if you address the points that i and others have raised. i explicitly asked you to in my last comment, and you didn't, so please don't reply again until you feel up to that task.
I'm a transman, and I would just like to say that I too felt hurt and upset by this. It did make me feel 'laughed at' and disgusting and ashamed.
I dislike how you just pushed away that one person who was uneducated in translife. I think that is the main problem and the reason why so many people stay ignorant about the subject(and probably what caused such an awful comic). It is a hard concept to wrap your head around sometimes. and when a person asks for clarification people immediately get defensive which is not the way to go about things. It is counterproductive. I didn't like the comic and thought it was ridiculous. I also don't like the way you handle that confused person and brushed them off so easily.
liongirl, are you talking about the anonymous troll or bill? if you have another look, i spent quite a bit of time talking to bill - too much, given he threw it back in my face. and as for anonymous trolls, well... do you really think they deserve my time and energy? i don't, but by all means, feel free to hang around and explain trans 101 to every anon who shows up.
also, liongirl, i don't see where i brushed the anonymous commenter off - i gave them honest answers, i gave them links to other blogs to help clarify what i said. let's have another look:
Wait, why is her liking girls dressed like boys bad?there's nothing wrong with her liking girls who dress as boys, but trans men are not girls dressing as boys, and it's offensive to imply that they are.
So its bad to point out that trans men were once girls? Im serious about this, I may sound stupid, but I know some trans people who are okay telling people that they were once something else. At what point does a woman "become" a man?a person is the gender they say they are.
you asked what is wrong with the comic, and i clarified. if you still don't get it, perhaps you could re-read my post, and/or read sarah's post and the comments. and if you still don't get it, read the blog questioning transphobia in full. basically, educate yourself.
I read both your blog and Sarah's and they were very informative.
Im going to put on a potato sack and tell people that I'm a potato. If anyone is turned on by this I will make sure to yell at them too.there's not a brush-off there, and i'm pretty surprised you would choose to criticise my part in that interaction! there are plenty of links in my blogroll and sidebar, and if that person had any interest in finding things out, it would be very simple to do so using those links.
@Bill
I don't put up with crap from other transmen either. There are transmen who have opinions I find unacceptable, just the same with cis people.
If you were trans, I would perhaps alter my comments, but certainly you would not be absolved of your responsibility to think about how other people feel.
@liongirl
There is an expectation by majorities that minorities will educate them on the spot. This becomes exhausting and is generally a bad assumption to make. The minority person is treated as an exhibit, either as educational or entertainment material for the majority person. Further, many majority people don't want to be educated, but rather want to appear tolerant. (That isn't everyone, I am only referring to those who make this problematic.)
The reason that people don't know that much about trans people is because of prejudice, and because of a lack of representation in the media. It is not because of people who grow tired of educating every person who sees fit to ask them invasive question, or because the people have shown that they aren't seriously interested in learning but just want to mock or prove that trans people are really insincere and haven't actually thought about gender.
You are all very warped to think that you are the only ones who see things right.
Just because a person doesn't understand doesn't mean they don't agree. There are those fools who disagree and ask questions just to say something rude or hurtful..
but I know first hand that there are some people who just can't wrap their heads around it.
and being rude to those people because the ask an honest question is just as bad as transphobic people who attack translife every chance they get.
transgender society is not cut and dry and there is a lot of "ifs" and "buts" about it. I am not trying to attack any of you.
but I am just pointing out that sometimes, we cause the ignorance and the awful portrayals because we are too defensive to give others who don't understand like we do.. a chance.
I know it is trying.. to also answer questions and explain. but how do we except to get anywhere in this place if we don't?
activism is active not agressive. a lot of people don't realize that.
we aren't fighting against those who don't understand.. we are fighting for them to actually understand.
There are those fools who disagree and ask questions just to say something rude or hurtfulyes, like the anonymous commenter. again, liongirl, i'm genuinely not sure what you're referring to. if you could point out some examples from my comments to illustrate your point, it would probably be helpful.
we aren't fighting against those who don't understand.. we are fighting for them to actually understandin many cases, yes. although, as you also point out in your comment, some people say stupid things in order to be rude and hurtful. and i'm no martyr to the cause to put up with that kind of thing.
often when people are rude and ignorant on my blog, i don't really feel like engaging with them. as i said, if you want to set up your own blog, or if you can be on call in every comment thread on every trans blog to explain trans 101 to people who don't understand (and often, i find, it's not a benign not-understanding, it's wilful ignorance), then you are more than welcome to do so.
in this case, i think that my post and the links i gave had already answered the question the anonymous commenter posed. i'm not about to waste my time re-explaining what i - and others - had already explained. the question was wilfully ignorant and always designed to be trolly.
as vellum pointed out really concisely in the second comment, there are some people who
have shown that they aren't seriously interested in learning but just want to mock or prove that trans people are really insincere and haven't actually thought about gender. and i am not interested in engaging with them. it takes too much of my energy and time, and i have a life outside of this that i want to get on with!
you accurately point out that there are a lot of different approaches to trans activism. if mine doesn't suit you, feel free to set up your own blog, write your own article, join/create a group of like-minded people (on or offline) and do the work you see needs to be done.
My favorite part is how the "hot" transmen are those who have no facial hair (pre-T, pre-op). I guess as soon as we start changing our bodies to match our identities we turn "boring" and possibly into "real men." If this was in fact what the author meant, it sounds a lot like the argument of "trans people aren't really their identified gender until they have bottom surgery."
Although, as a pre-op pre-T transman, I've found I pretty much have to date people who are attracted to both my current body and my manly manly identity, for my own sanity. In that sense I objectify myself as I relate to other people's attraction; it turns into creepy tranny-chaser when that's the only reason the attraction is there.
@ trannysaurus - yes, it really does seem a bit like that. ugh. there are so many trans guys the whole scenario insults!
i do understand that need to be with people who respect/desire your identity and your body. i think it's something that a lot of trans people are constantly having to negotiate with partners in order to feel ok having sexual relationships, and i think that what's needed varies quite a lot person to person. unfortunately, sentiments like the ones expressed in the comic do not encourage potential partners of trans guys (or trans people generally) to get to understand what specific trans guys want, or what they're comfortable with. it makes blanket statements about what is hot and desireable about the trans guy to the chaser/potential partner, without giving much thought to how the trans person might feel about that.
Actually I think what makes the cartoon offensive is that she's sexualizing someone else's misery. She is getting off on someone else having to do a lot of things they wish they did not have to in order to be ok with themselves. Its as good as masterbating over someone having to put on their prosthetic leg. How sick would you be if you did that too?
I think you're a dumbass AND a fucking assholes for posting this shit. And your dumbassery is hard to ignore.
I'm so sorry your mother's took mind altering drugs while she was knocked up with you, BUT you don't have to take it out on the woman who made this comic, the transguys, or anyone else who you obviously know nothing about.
hey nixwilliams, i'm caro (not any of the previous anonymouses, just don't feel like making an account right now). as a cis woman of color, i totally feel you on the reaction to the comic--i feel disturbed the same way. i'm an asian american woman to be more specific, so i've been plenty exoticized/objectified, especially by white men, and i fucking hate it. it makes me trust the next white man (and racially ignorant people in general) a lot less every time someone others me. this act dehumanizes asian/asian american women, treating them like sex toys, not human beings. and asian american women have been suffering a lot of sexual violence as a result of it. i am sure that trans and queer people suffer sexual violence too, due to this process and other processes of othering. anyway, i just wanted to put in a word of solidarity, especially because some cis people here are soooo injured by seeing their privilege being called out. hello. everyone has something to learn. deal with it.
hi caro, and thank you for commenting. i can definitely see the parallels in the racism and misogynisy you describe. i'm overseas at the moment, and i don't really have time to engage your comment further, but i definitely agree with you that white people/men can be extraordinarily skeezy, and i can imagine that the way that affects you (if it is the way that the skeeziness of the comic affects me, but on a grander scale) can be very upsetting.
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